Episode 62: Transcript

You are listening to episode 62 of the Path to Motherhood podcast.

Welcome to the Path to Motherhood podcast.

I'm your host and fertility life coach, Sarah Brandell.

Join us each week as we walk through navigating your trying to conceive journey.

My mission is to share the skills of managing your mind, processing emotions and living a full life to create a more authentic path to motherhood.

(upbeat music) Hello, hello.

I am super excited for this episode and we are gonna dive right into it just because I know this is gonna be a longer one.

One might think that it's a little bit odd to be talking about parenting on an infertility podcast and a pregnancy loss podcast, but I promise this episode could be so beneficial for a lot of you.

If you don't have kiddos, if you don't have kids in your life, and this is not a question that's been on your mind, 100% totally fine to skip this episode and come back to it if it ever applies to you in the future.

But I know there are many of you listening who either do have kids because you have had success on this journey, you have secondary infertility, you have gone through adoption or fostering or you are close with family members and have kids around you and are really wondering how to navigate sharing that information when you are going through infertility.

And so that is what this podcast today is gonna all be about.

And I feel like there's just this assumption in the infertility space that once you have that first kid, whether it was because you didn't have infertility with your first and now you're going through secondary infertility, or you did have a child through infertility, there's this assumption that like all the struggles just disappear.

And that is absolutely not the case.

I can be your walking example that honestly, the path to baby number two has been much harder for me than the path to baby number one.

And what I mean by that is both were an infertility story, both handled pregnancy losses, but I have grieved way more, lost more and grown more on my path to baby number two.

So if you find yourself somewhere on the journey of navigating infertility and having to parent a child or navigate talking with a child, however you got there, this episode is for you.

And just like most things with parenting, we don't get like a lesson book.

We sort of have to just figure it out as we go.

And there are books about general stuff, but definitely not about how to talk to your kid about pregnancy loss or IVF meds.

So that is why I thought it would be amazing to have someone on here to talk just about that.

And so today we are going to be joined by Dr.

Bridget Jones, a licensed clinical psychologist in my neck of the woods in Dayton, Ohio.

She was trained in child and clinical pediatric psychology and now primarily focuses on working with women in the perinatal and the new parent stage.

And she actually works with women all across the country.

So I'm super excited to have her on.

I will allow her to introduce herself as we get started and make sure you check the show notes so you can go follow her, ask her questions, reach out to her as well.

And I hope you all enjoy the interview.

- Welcome to the Path to Motherhood podcast.

This is Dr.

Bridget with us.

I'm super happy to have you on here with us.

Thank you for joining.

- Yeah, thank you for having me.

I'm excited to be here.

- Yeah, so I did do, like I mentioned, a little introduction before the episode got started.

But I would love for you to share just a little bit about who you are, why you got into doing what you do, and we'll get started there.

- Yeah, yeah, so I am a licensed clinical psychologist.

I'm located in Dayton, Ohio, and I primarily see people in the perinatal population, so people who are pregnant, postpartum, or new parents too, to help with things like anxiety, the stress of parenting, feeling overwhelmed with everything.

I also see clients who have experienced some sort of pregnancy loss or who are going through any sort of infertility.

So that's in my private practice.

Those are the clients that I'm typically, typically seeing.

I was trained largely as a child and pediatric psychologist.

So I worked a lot in children's hospitals and general hospitals.

And so I have a lot of experience working with kids and teenagers.

And I love, love, love working with kids and teenagers, but I found towards the end of my training in my early year and my first year of licensure that I really actually enjoyed working with parents a lot more to.

I myself had just become a parent and there was something that I really found really beneficial working with parents because I know how stressful it can be.

I know it just opens your world up to a whole new set of joys and challenges too.

and how much of that can be reflected in how you parent.

So I became really passionate about working with parents, which is where I am at now.

So I do still see children and adolescents in my practice, but it's largely adults or parents.

- I think that's cool because people who listen to podcasts know I have a background in working in the ER.

And we see a lot of needs for support of mental health across all ages.

And as much as it's important for children, for adolescents to get support when they need it, like that's at best what an hour a week.

And then they go home to their parents and to be able to support the parents so that they can be capable of parenting better is a huge impact on every one of those kids.

So that's awesome.

- A thousand percent.

It's, you know, we call it a family system for a reason because you all in your family work within a system.

And so, you know, any interactions or experiences, you know, it feeds the other people in that system.

So I think a lot of times parents, you know, through no fault of their own, but, you know, their own mental health journeys or struggles, it can be reflected in the family.

And I don't say that with any judgment or that's, like I said, no fault of their own, but it's good to be able to know, you know, how can I address these.

And I think that can be a beautiful way to model that for your kids as well.

You know, I have these struggles and that's okay.

Everyone does.

And, you know, here's how I'm learning how to cope with it or figure it out and let's have that conversation together.

So I think it, you know, parenting is the hardest thing in the world.

And so, you know, we need all the support we can get.

I say that as a parent myself.

Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

And that speaks to kind of some of the things I why I wanted to have you on.

But one thing I wanted to kind of mention is you, of course, know my heart is for supporting all the women, all the families that are navigating infertility, pregnancy loss.

And before we logged on and like started recording talking about how there's a lot of reasons people would be seeking support on that journey from somebody.

However, that shows up and in the last couple months have talked a lot about how anxiety shows up a lot in the pregnancy stage of things.

Even if you've, you know, feels like you've won the part of the battle, right.

Like you've gotten pregnant.

And then a lot of times there's a lot more anxiety that comes along with that.

So I'm sure that's something you see a lot of.

Yes, 1000% because you go through such trauma with either experiencing some sort of loss or the long journey of infertility and it's almost like your world becomes open to all of the possibilities, all of the pain, all of the things that could happen, you know, all these potential scenarios of what could negative thing, negative outcome could happen.

And then, yes, you get pregnant, but those fears remain.

And it's hard to manage those, especially when, even though you're pregnant and the baby is in your body, there's not a whole lot of control you have.

It's a waiting and endurance game in a sense.

You have to, in a sense, trust the process of it all.

And that feels hard when the process that you've trusted before has has has let you down in some ways or has led to feelings of grief or loss.

So it's very normal to expect pregnancy after loss to be a very stressful anxiety provoking very difficult situation for people.

I think a lot of times people might feel that they're being too emotional or that they shouldn't feel that way.

But I think it's like I said, it's a very normal experience and it's understandable.

And it's knowing, "Okay, is this once again to the point where it's too much where I do need really help from other people, I need additional support.

" And I think it's knowing that for yourself too, but yes, I want to kind of just normalize that experience of pregnancy after loss is very scary.

Absolutely.

And it has me thinking about, while I never want to be the person that's trying to find all the positives and like be the toxic positivity of going through painful things, I do think that there is a gift in taking care of yourself, learning how you're gonna manage your emotions and process things, going through an infertility journey, going through anxiety during pregnancy, whatever it is, as preparing you for motherhood, right.

Like as being helpful for motherhood.

I don't know, you work with people on both sides of having children, right.

Pre-natal being before and after.

So I don't know what you think about that with it being really helpful, preparing ahead of time.

- Yeah, that's a really interesting point.

And I think, I haven't thought about that that way, but I think yes, that's incredibly true because parenting is a skill of letting go in some ways of control of, you know, there are things that yes, you can control as a parent.

And then there are a lot of things really can't.

And so going through that process of, you know, learning how to release some of that control or, you know, understand that things take time or the patience of it all.

Yes.

And I've had a lot of, you know, I can't speak to what this looks like on a larger scale, but, you know, anecdotally, I've had a lot of clients who they get to, they give birth after, you know, experiencing infertility or loss and they actually feel so much more relief and the postpartum period is I don't want to say easier because the postpartum period is never easier but it's maybe more manageable because they it's almost like they've already kind of gotten used to things being hard or you know, it's almost like they'll take the fatigue or the difficulty of postpartum Over the struggle that they were in and this is not I I should say this is not the case for everyone because a lot of people go through This infertility and still struggle with postpartum anxiety depression Which would also make sense because you've been through a significant trauma and you're finally on the other side But you're still going to drop.

No, no exactly So I think it's it's different for everyone But I think that that's a beautiful way of looking at it and reframing it of you're preparing yourself through Decision that was made not by you.

I'm sure you know you could have the choice.

You wouldn't want to go through this but You Yet here you are and so learning, you know, how do I like hope with some of these things.

How do I what do I do when things are really hard.

You know, how do I I think you learn also, you know, how how much you can love you know and and even if You're not Yet or you're still going to that infertility struggle that I think the love is still there You know, you do love your future family and what in what you want from From your family and so I think it speaks to that that love that's there which is beautiful and scary at the same time in parenting, right.

It's your heart is walking around outside your body.

So I think, yes, that's a really wonderful, beautiful way of looking at it, preparing yourself for that journey.

Yeah, I when I sign off on the podcast, I always refer to everyone as inspired mamas.

And I remember when I first like, scripted that to like record it.

My editor was like, Are you sure about that.

And I'm like, Yeah, like if they're showing up and putting themselves out there and risking this experience to go out there and become a mother.

Like they are putting out motherhood energy even if the baby is not here yet.

So.

- Yes, I love that.

I love that.

Yes, I think that's so true.

- Something I always tell clients is, it's really easy in the thick of it to be like, I just need to get to this fertility test.

I need to get to this fertility appointment and then everything will be okay.

I need to start doing IVF and then everything will be okay.

I need to get to the transfer and then everything will be okay.

And just talking about how there's always the new goal post, right.

Once you get pregnant, that doesn't go away.

Like just the trimester, the second track, you know, getting through things.

Even when the baby is here, that's going to happen.

Um, and yes, we make the best of the cards that were dealt.

Like if I could erase them, I would love to, but that's not possible.

So how can we make what we have dealt to us as helpful, as useful, as beneficial to us as possible while also honoring the pain of it.

- Yes, which is such a hard balance to strike as you're describing, 'cause I think it is normal.

You know, you hold on, you get, you see those goal posts 'cause there are things that you hold on to, right.

Okay, I just gotta get there, I just gotta get there.

And it's understandable when you're going through things, especially like a pregnancy after loss or infertility.

You just need something to hold on to.

You need to get to that next thing.

And yes, and how do you also stay present in the moment that you're in, and especially going back to that aspect of control knowing that you can't control tomorrow, so you've got to be in today.

It's a hard balance of knowing, OK, It's good to have that goal post 'cause I wanna work towards that.

It's something that I can hold on to.

There's that aspect of hope that I can have.

And at the same time, I gotta take it day by day.

But you're right, even when baby is here, it's like, okay, well, I just gotta get them to sleep through the night.

And then my energy will be back, right.

I just gotta get them to, I have a almost six-month-old.

I'm like, okay, well, Like six or nine months, she's not as fragile, I guess.

You know, I mean, my fear will go away of something, you know, random happening.

And yeah, there's always the next thing.

And I think that's really easy and parenting to want to get to those next things.

And yes, what are these moments now, are we missing.

And I wanna say, and again, because I think many things are true at once.

And it's okay if it's really hard to be in the moment too, because it is really hard.

Infertility is hard, loss is hard, parenting is hard.

So, I think a lot of people can be like, "Well, hold on to those days," or whatever it is.

And sure, and it's okay also to at least some of the days, or even most, be like, I would love to just get to that next goal post.

That's okay too.

I think the thing I always come back to is, I mean, anything, every emotion and thought is temporary and every emotion and thought is valid and okay to feel too, especially when it comes to this journey.

- So one of the main reasons I wanted to have you on was talking about parenting, which some would maybe think, that's an interesting topic to have on a infertility focus podcast.

But I do think that however you get there, if it's through secondary infertility, if you did have infertility and you had your first and you are a parent and still navigating infertility or pregnancy loss, it can be a really isolating place to be.

That was for me the case that you don't necessarily feel like you fit in with your group of people around you that seemingly are just having their kids as they plan to have them, but you also are a reminder to those that you've made friends with that are going through infertility, that you have what they want so badly.

And I almost feel like, can feel like a little bit of a lost crowd, if that makes sense.

Yes.

Yeah.

And so you, it sounds like you, you're saying you don't quite fit into either group there and it lends itself to feeling lonely.

Yeah, absolutely.

the only one in that situation.

I as much as You know, I'm someone who believes this and remind people of this on the podcast to clients and support group that I host all the time that like It there's really not a bunch of benefit of comparing pain, right.

We do that.

It's our nature to do that And I think that's something that comes along with it is like how can I be.

maybe feeling all the things that I'm feeling When I'm the one who has the success these people over here may never have the success you start doing those comparisons Yeah, and you have any advice about how to Navigate when your brain starts to go that direction.

Yes.

I had that comparison game is is is very challenging especially in in all of these aspects as you're describing and And I think we can get really hard on ourselves too sometimes of saying, well, I shouldn't feel this way because I have this or and I think sometimes that's even reinforced by what people say to you or maybe society at that large kind of the messages that we receive.

You know, you should be grateful.

You should be thankful, you know, all of these things.

So I always go back to, I know I just said it, but I think it's a really powerful message, especially through journeys of significant hardship or trauma is that we can experience two opposite truths at the same time and two things can be true at the same time.

And I'm sure this is something that you yourself touch on with your clients too, that you can can feel grateful and you can feel alone or or envious of another person's journey or resentful or you know frustrated that maybe it was an easier journey for someone else.

You know there's there can be all of those things and and I think so often we get so hard on ourselves if we feel like maybe you know we're not showing up the best in our our friendships or in our relationships because of some of those negative feelings that we're having because of our own journeys.

And I think that that's really normal.

It makes sense.

And, and it's okay to feel that way too.

Like exactly as, as it reminds me of the movie inside out.

I talk about this my clients all the time.

But the, you know, how the memories at the end, the memories are mixed.

They're no longer just one feeling.

You know, it's like happiness and the sadness, happiness and whatever it is.

It's not just a solitary emotion.

And I think of it in that way that we are complex and we can feel all of those things at once.

And some days that, you know, resentment factor is going to be bigger.

And you're going to be able to harness that gratitude more.

It might change, you know, minute to minute.

So I think it's a balance of not being too hard on ourselves for that and kind of allowing those thoughts and feelings to come up as they do.

And to take a step back from those thoughts and feelings and say, "Okay, I am feeling really, you know, resentful right now.

" That makes a lot of sense why I'm feeling that way and that's okay.

Yeah.

Or, you know, I am able to really, you know, feel that gratitude today and I'm just going to sit in that for a little while.

So, you know, I think that's kind of a, it's, that answer is not like a tangible because it's kind of, you know, a little bit more ambiguous, but I think that speaks to just the complexity of journeys like that.

Yeah.

the comparison to the movie.

It makes me think about, I often talk about the more you're willing to open up to and feel all the pain that comes along with this journey, whatever that emotion is, I really do believe that allows you to feel stronger positive emotions, or kind of numbing out or avoiding allowing those negative emotions in, it's going to avoid the positive ones as well.

So I like thinking about that, but I've kind of forgot about the fact that there was those mixed emotions.

Yeah, another example kind of similar to that, because it's been asked a couple times recently.

I'm more recording this, I'm 23 weeks pregnant.

I've had a totally different experience of my like interest in talking about it, sharing it, not necessarily like in my business, but more like in my family and my personal life, right.

Like with my first, you know, I wanted to do the classic pregnancy announcement.

And this time I don't have any interest in it.

So I'll get asked about it because it's not like we're not telling people, right.

Like my in-laws, people, family knows.

And there's something I think underlying that it's easy for people who are outside of it to say like, oh, congratulations, we're so happy for you.

And it almost completely forgets the last three and a half years that it's taken to get here.

And to just celebrate it and only be happy feels like, Hey, but what about, all those losses.

What about all that pain.

What about all those negative tests that I feel that I want to keep honoring, but announcing it feels like it's ignoring those, if that makes sense.

Completely, completely.

Yeah, it's, it's right, even going back to those two things are true, but I'm hearing that it almost, I guess what I hear you say is that feeling celebratory in some way, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like feeling celebratory and only feeling that way is kind of negating everything that has gone on for you to get to this point.

And I think that I don't feel that way.

Like I know that that wouldn't happen for me, but when people are coming at me and I get it, people want to be positive.

They want to think about happy things.

They don't want to think about pain.

It feels like allowing them to just celebrate the good news that's coming in the handful of months allows them to forget, hey, I've been through a lot of pain the last four years.

Yeah, and I'm curious too, which how does that make you feel like that.

Does that bring up like frustration for you or or anger resentment.

What does that bring.

Yeah, like I said, my husband and I were just recently talking about this because he was like, oh, we're not gonna announce it.

And I was explaining to him why I just didn't feel a little bit need to.

I guess it's so many times in an infertility journey, it's very easy to feel invalidated.

All the comments, all, you know, all the stuff.

And I, you know, talk with women on a regular basis about how to acknowledge that that's not coming from a place of attempting to invalidate you, even if it feels that way, right.

But I think that I like am almost perceiving that that that would happen, that it would feel invalidated.

Yes, that it would feel invalidating for them to not acknowledge everything you've been through.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I think that that it reminds me of like a concept of intention versus impact.

And I think that's what you're describing of maybe the intention is good or that they want to just share in the joy, even knowing that you've been through such a journey and yet wanting to just celebrate where you're at now.

So or whatever the intention is or like you described maybe to just not, they don't want to feel uncomfortable anymore with talking through it.

And yet, like you're saying, the impact is that it feels invalidating or it feels like they're not acknowledging, you you know, all of the hardship and the challenge that came before this.

And as you're describing, like other losses, which were your babies too.

And so I definitely understand that and I definitely understand the reaction on your end to not want to necessarily do those traditional celebratory things.

And I think that that is very much your right to do that.

So I'm even thinking, I know I mentioned this to you before too, but I had my own second trimester loss around 16 weeks and gave birth to my baby.

And when I got pregnant again with my daughter now, who's like I mentioned almost six months.

I didn't want to do any of those things either.

Did not want a baby shower.

Did not want you know, I never wanted a gender reveal but I definitely don't want it you know this time around.

I just all of those things and I wanted to keep it sacred and close to just my family because it did feel like in some ways almost a betrayal in some sense of everything, of my sound that I lost or, you know, things that have come before.

And it was hard for me to, to, as we're going back to that thought of holding both things.

And I was, you know, able to, and I allowed, I think I was able to allow myself grief when I felt it or happiness when I felt it and, you know, allowed that.

But it was, it was hard then for, I think, the people around me to know how to support me because they wanted to share in this joy.

And yet I was saying, I hear you.

I'm not quite all in that though.

I'm not quite in that huge space of celebration because I'm still mourning.

I'm still grieving and I'm still mad or I'm still, you know, all of these things.

And so that's where it gets to be so complicated.

And I think that's where it's okay to be inconvenient to people and to kind of do your own thing because it's your, it's your path.

I know I keep referring to it as a journey, but it is your journey, especially for you, you and your husband.

And so it's, you know, what's going to be comfortable for me what's going to feel like I'm honoring all of this my current pregnancy and everything that I've experienced before I think it's very common feeling.

Yeah yeah I and I was totally not even planning to go that direction but that's my current experience of holding on the two emotions and I do think for those of you going through pregnancy after loss, pregnancy after infertility, I think that's a really common reason for like anger, for frustration going through pregnancy is we want to have that stereotypical.

I just love being not necessarily that you aren't going to like have bad symptoms, but that you're just happy and excited and blissful.

I hear so many clients say like, I just want the naive pregnancy where they They don't have to be worried about the pain.

And so just acknowledging that there is definitely an experience where you hold both sides of that.

Yeah.

And being okay with feeling whatever angry or upset that you didn't have that or don't have that any longer, that kind of quote unquote naive approach or pregnancy or just the kind of bliss of pregnancy.

I think it's okay to feel frustrated or sad about that.

And I think if sometimes that it's like these traumas that it's like before and after, it's like before you started this journey, there was this idea of, and this expectation of what it was supposed to be like.

And then the after, after a loss, or after a diagnosis of the infertility or whatever the case may be, the after.

you know, your life never quite goes back and it never can.

No, not possible.

And so honoring that for yourself and grieving even for that process too, that it should have been a different way in it.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Yeah, I don't know when this will line up with other podcasts, but I have one coming out soonish about secondary losses.

What I mean by that is impacts on relationships on friends on your career from going through this but also same thing of grieving what you thought would have been your family building life experience and you can't recreate what you thought it would have been and there's a new version that you get to create and that can be beautiful But you can also grieve what you lost so absolutely So one of the things I really wanted to share about just because I have not shared about it on this podcast and Get your insight about was parenting My daughter she took us Just over a year to get pregnant with her and we went through a loss before having her and We started trying sooner than we probably would just because we knew that it took time right and And she was the easy path.

It took us three and a half, almost four years to get pregnant the second time.

That's sticking.

And she was young when we started that process, right.

Like she was 10 months old when we started that process.

She was young enough that I really didn't feel I had to talk to her about our losses when our losses happened.

And then we went through years of negative tests and treatments and everything else.

And I think really the time when we started opening up more to her was when it became more visible because we started doing IVF.

And there's shots galore in the house.

And she, you know, like physically watched us do these shots and ask some questions about that or we would prepare for a transfer, an embryo transfer, and we would let her know.

Like we'd come home and show her the picture of the embryo and be like, "We really hope it sticks.

" And then tell her that it didn't and grieve about it and explain why I'm crying about it.

And there was never a time where Jason and I sat down and were like, "Oh, this is how we're going to do this.

Like this is a good way to approach it.

" I feel like we just evolved over time.

I think the thing that like innately I knew deep down is I couldn't just like not talk about it and like pretend to be okay.

Like I knew I would be crying, I would be upset, I'd be going through things and she would have questions about that.

And so that's, I think was my guide to be more willing to be open than not open with her.

But it's been interesting in the last year, navigating all of that to hear people be like, oh, she knows about it.

Like you told her about like very surprised almost from other people like I can't believe she knew that or from now she knows we've had miscarriages we've explained that to her because when we did this fourth transfer and it stuck I almost felt a sense of needing to like protect her of hey this may not last right.

This may end and explaining that to her ahead of time rather than it just being a blindsided thing.

So all that to say, that's something that you are a specialist in is, you know, parenting and talking to kids about big emotions, whatever they are, even if it's not something related to infertility and loss of, yeah, how you approach that, what advice you have for approaching that.

I would love to hear what you have to say.

Yeah, I first want to say how understandable that it is for it to be a big question about how to go about that because like you mentioned, you want to protect your child.

You also want them to know what these things are, like why are these shots happening or why is mommy crying, all of these things.

And it's a hard balance.

So So I first just want to say for anyone going through that and knowing how to talk with their kids about it, it's challenging.

Then there's no rulebook.

You know, period.

Yes, exactly, exactly.

I think that your, it sounds like your instinct to share is, I don't want to say correct because again, there's no rule book, there's no black and white way of doing things.

But kids, as I'm sure any parent knows, kids are sponges and they pick up on everything, even if they can't quite put their finger on what's going on or even if they don't have the language or the emotional complexity or understanding of what's going on, they know something's going on.

They always do.

And so So I think it's number one, always good to assume that they know something is going on.

And so they are going to paint a picture in their own head if you don't give them a picture to imagine.

So they might create their own narrative or their story about what's going on if you don't share that with them.

There was also a study recently about parents attempting to kind of hold back negative emotions or kind of disguise them with being overly positive or just try not to show those emotions.

And then the long run, what the study showed is that actually that it was likely holding back those emotions was made it more likely for relationship quality between parent and child to be lower or for a diminished responsiveness to your child's needs or lower well-being for the parent themselves because they're having to repress everything that they're feeling in front of their child.

And so you feel not as attuned to your child, you feel kind of distracted or detached or not authentic with them, which again, with all of these things, there's no judgment.

It's understandable why you would want to do that and likely because of wanting to protect your child from that.

And as I mentioned, they know, right.

They're picking up on it.

And so it can impact that parent-child relationship.

And so I think your instinct was right was to, it sounds like you were showing up authentically with her and bringing her along in that journey and painting her that picture of what's going on.

I think a good thing to keep in mind is like developmental level, right.

Like we, we, we want to share with, we're going to share obviously about this journey differently with toddlers than we are with teenagers.

So it's important to, yes, keep in mind that developmental level and what they cognitively, cognitively know about death or of loss or, um, about, I mean, even how like babies are born, right.

Like all of these things are maybe put from.

So I think it is really important to keep in mind that developmental level.

But yes, my thought and I think what the research shows is sharing that journey with your child is important and sharing your own emotions within that.

And I can talk more about like what that looks like, but it is important to be able to share those things with them because they're going to come to some conclusion whether you tell them that are not.

You have me thinking about the fact which I have not thought about this.

Thinking of the timing.

The month of our first transfer, it was a year ago in October, our dog got diagnosed with cancer.

And so we also were navigating explaining to her that our dog was dying.

That was me and my husband's first child, right.

So that was hard on us.

But yeah, we lost him like very closely after Thanksgiving.

And so we went through the like preparing her for that was going to happen as a three year old and then losing that dog.

And so that has me thinking about I don't think we talked about losses of pregnancy prior to that.

Like that was an introduction into her loss of death that you can't escape, right.

Like if the dog is gonna leave, you have to explain that to your child.

And that was probably something that helped me open up to that later into that.

I don't even know that we really talked about miscarriages until this past summer.

So.

- Yeah.

And I think that that reminds me, how old is your daughter now.

- She turned four in August.

- Okay.

she was three back in when this was going on for you.

And I have to say, what a horrible time for you.

Must have been that last October, November time.

That is a lot of stress and pain.

But yes, I can understand that, that being her first real understanding of what that looks like.

And it can be confusing because I think I think for kids under six, the understanding that death is permanent is hard for them to comprehend.

And I can see that now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm sure it was, you know, wondering when the dog was coming back or where did it, where did it, he or she go, you know, all of these questions.

And so, yes, it can be very hard to understand, you know, what, what that, what that really means for a child that young.

And I think, yes, it would be thinking of that developmental level, right, like a two or three year old, it's going to have a hard time really understanding miscarriage, right, understanding loss.

And you can still talk about it in a way where they have some understanding of what you're going through.

So saying, you know, something like, you know, mommy and daddy are trying really hard to have another baby.

And it's taking a long time and it's, you know, really hard.

And Mommy, I feel really sad about it sometimes.

And do you have any questions about that.

Or just kind of like, and I think another, I'll say this too, another really important piece is that when you talk about this with kids, especially young kids, it's important to model the emotion and what you're feeling.

And always reiterating to them that they are safe, they are loved, that nothing about you is going to change.

Like your relationship is not going to change.

So saying things like, I do mommy does feel really sad because this is taking a long time to have a baby and it's really hard and I feel sad at times.

And that doesn't take away from how much I love you and we are all safe.

The three of us are a family.

So nothing about that changes.

And I'm feeling sad, but I'm okay.

I'm gonna be okay, but it's also okay to feel sad sometimes too.

So, you know, modeling that you are sad, but that their world is still okay, they're still safe.

They are still very much loved by you.

Because I think if not, they speaking to how they might take that story and kind of fill in those images themselves, they might think that you, it's their fault that you are sad or something like that.

know, toddlers and kids just they have their own imaginations.

So they're gonna internalize it because that's the world that they know is about them, you know, they're no fault of their own.

So, you know, again, always better to give them the language to give them the story.

Yeah, I appreciate that because, like I said, it was not planned.

It was really coming from, I don't feel the ability to be grieving and crying and pretend I'm okay.

So I have to come up with a different option that I think we really started sharing anything.

But once we did, that was probably the first fear that came up that I remember going to my husband and being like, "We don't know what's going to happen.

We don't know if this is going to work.

We don't know if we ever will have a child.

" But I never want her to think like something was not good enough about her and that's what kept going through this process.

We kept doing this.

I never want it to be that.

I never want it to be anything of a blame on her.

There will be a book.

I forget the exact title of it.

I'll share it.

It's actually like a children's book.

And it talks about, you know, going through these treatments, it talks about being sad, but like regardless, the child in front of you is more than enough.

And so we would read that all the time.

But yeah, just trying to reassure her often of that was something that did feel very important to do.

Yeah, of course.

And it, like you're saying, it does feel so hard because you want to protect them from any future pain or grief too.

And I think that gets really hard because like you're saying, it wasn't natural for you to try to hide that grief or sadness or tears or whatever that looked like.

And yes, you also want to protect them what that the future looks like.

And it's hard, but I think the most that you can speak the truth, the or be authentic, I think that that's going to be the most beneficial because they're going to figured out or know anyway.

So, you know, saying, like, yes, I, you know, there is a belly, there is a baby and mommy's belly.

We, you know, I'm feeling really excited right now.

You know, we don't, we don't know if it's going to work.

I really hope so.

I know you probably really hope so too.

So we'll just see, you know, I'll always tell you what's going on.

Again, like, do you have any questions about that.

What do you think about that.

And yes, either way, no matter what, I love you so much.

You know, I think that you are so special and that nothing about this changes that.

I'll always, you know, mommy is okay.

You know, and we are still our little family unit.

- Yeah, when we, I relate that to when we would go through a transfer, I would say something similar of like, we have an embryo in my belly.

Here's the picture of it, 'cause how do you make this thing a belly realistic.

And we'll see.

We hope it wants to snuggle in and sleep there, but we'll see if that happens.

Almost try to like set expectations, right.

That, and the one thing I do want to share and really emphasize is she was three, she was four, even non-related to these type of conversations.

Sometimes you'll be having a conversation with them and you'll be like, oh yeah, they're like totally following, they're jiving.

And then they'll be like, can I have Goldfish.

You know what I mean.

Like totally unrealized.

I'm like, okay, all right, this conversation is done.

I don't really know if we got anywhere with this, but that's okay.

- Yes.

- And that's okay if that happens.

- Totally, totally.

They are taking it, it doesn't mean they're not taking it in.

It doesn't mean they're not, you know, hearing what you're saying.

And yes, they still are three or four and they want Goldfish or they wanna go play with their toy or whatever the case may be.

And I know you can kind of set yourself up and be like, here's like this special moment where we're really connecting here.

She's really understanding.

And then the goldfish, you're like, okay, well, I don't know if you've heard any of that.

But they do, of course they do.

But yes, they are still three.

And their thoughts are like, weeding 1,000 miles a minute.

So yes, I think that's very common.

And I do have to say, love the language that you use.

I think language is so important in how we talk about it with our kids.

I love the language that you use about like you hope that they're smuggling in there and wanting to stay there or whatever it was that you said.

I think that's such a beautiful image for a little three-year-old to understand.

So I think also getting for young kids, getting out their imagination or really using imagery.

So I love that you showed the ultrasound picture or whatever picture you showed them of the embryo and also using that language of the snuggling in because kids know what that means.

So I think you speak to how even just the words we use can be really powerful and help their comprehension of it.

Yeah, you have me thinking about, there's an amazing woman.

She's also from Dayton, Ohio that has worked in hospice her whole life.

I was raised by a mom that worked in hospice her whole life as well.

They were very good friends and she lost her husband and then she lost her adult daughter and her daughter had a young son.

And I can't remember how old he was at the time, maybe four, maybe six, I think it was four, here somewhere close to there.

And so she started I started writing children's books about grief and about loss.

And she, of course, wrote the first one about mom, but she's since written books about mom, dad, grandparents, siblings.

The siblings one are worded in a way that if you have gone through like a miscarriage that a child is aware of, they would be able to take that book from there.

And all of them reflect on the person dying, going to the clouds.

And so that's how we've talked about it.

Even when Leland, our dog, passed was he's in the clouds.

And she very much clings to that.

Like, on a day like today when I look outside, she would say something in the car, I'm like, mommy, there's no clouds outside.

Where's Leland.

Like she would say something like that.

And we would have to talk about, oh, there are clouds, they're not here, but they're somewhere.

He's running around.

So she very much like is able to associate to that imagery.

So, yeah, yeah, it, you know, as you were talking, it reminds me too of we, we came up on like that kind of a two year anniversary of the law of my loss, our loss.

And, you know, we have made the decision to, you know, every year try to honor our son and my kid's brother.

And so, you know, we, and we, I have a three year old as well.

And so he, we talked a lot about, we went to the memorial like site, um, and, you know, talked about going there.

And, and we said, you know, we said the same, we see the same thing about going to heaven.

You know, Lewis, our son who passed is in heaven and, uh, you know, up in the sky and, and all of that.

And he, you know, in his three year old brain, he's like, well, why don't we take a plane to go to heaven or we were like, well, we can't take a plane.

He's like, well, about a car.

And so it was just, it was really so fascinating to hear kind of how he was wrapping his head around it.

But yes, every time we talk about our song, Lewis, he always looks straight up at the sky and says hi.

And, and, you know, for him at his young age, and he's still, as I mentioned, like he doesn't quite understand that Lewis as I'm coming back, you know, and that's still hard for him to comprehend, but he has an awareness of, yes, like you mentioned, the image of the sky and being up there.

And that's really powerful for him.

And he still feels connected to his brother in that way, because I think we've given him some of those image or images or the words or the language to kind of make that story in his head with his own imagination without giving him any sort of false sense of hope or anything.

So I do think it can be so powerful and I get a similar reaction sometimes too of surprise that we do actively share so much with with him about it and I have the same intention to do that with my daughter when she's old enough for you know the few years and but I think it's you know and that's every family's decision of course and that's every person's decision if it feels like it would be almost and I say unsafe in the way of not physically, but you know, if it would be unsafe for you to share with your kids what you're going through because the emotions are way too big for you or you would, you know, you run the risk of maybe worrying them in some way.

Like it makes sense that you don't want to share at that time with your kids and that's okay.

You know, that's a decision that you have to make with your family and kind of where you're at emotionally.

And yes, I do think that if you're you're able to, it can be really powerful to be able to share that with your kids in a way that makes them feel a part of that process with you.

Yeah, yeah, I love that.

One thing that has me thinking about, which maybe I need to knock on some wood, but I I don't feel like I have experienced any crazy out of the norm behaviors with my daughter.

Like there's behaviors, but they're like what I think I would expect a three, four year old to do.

But I can imagine that that's like a common thing that happens when kids are going through a stressful, like just knowing that your mom is pregnant, right.

Can be a stressful experience and bring a behaviors out, et cetera.

whatever they are, if it's, you know, diapering child, you know, going to the bathroom issues, whatever they end up being.

I guess if you have any insight to if those types of things are showing up, how to start navigating that.

Yes, I would say first, they are very, very common for any sort of behavioral regression or shift or tantrums, emotional alphors, whatever they may be, all very, very normal, I think with any sort of change or transition in life.

That's how kids react.

They don't have the language to say, I'm feeling very worried about this new child coming into our life.

I feel very worried about you because you are crying sometimes.

they don't have a language like that, how they show their languages through their actions.

And so, you know, they might have tantrums, they might cry more, they might act out, they might do some more, you know, attention seeking behaviors, whatever it is.

No matter what, that's normal, understandable.

It doesn't mean that then it's going to, that's how it's always going to be.

I think something to remember always is that there are things are always phases.

And if they're not, you know, I think it's good to get the support where then it's needed with, you know, behavioral therapists, psychologists, whatever it might be.

But likely for this transition time, it's a phase.

And so I think it depends on how that shows up.

You know, is it, do you know, is your child feeling more anxious.

And so is it more like teary.

And they're a little bit more clingy.

Or is it things like tantrums and behaviors or aggression in some way.

So I think it depends on what the actual behavior is.

But I think what can be really powerful is, you know, when when they feel like a shift is happening or they are feeling worried about something, what we always want to go back to is having them feel safe and loved.

And so what can be really powerful is just what's called like my child led play.

And so you I have like the image of like you getting down on their level and for you know a preteen teenager you're not gonna actually get down on their level of ground but you want to meet them where they're at in an activity that really that they love that they really enjoy you join in their world a little bit so it's just this special quality time where you know you just play with them and and and because again, their language is through play, is through action.

You're then showing them that you love them so much that they are safe, that you are interested in their world and what they enjoy.

So I think even just going back to basics of spending 15 minutes, 30 minutes, not even daily, but like as much as you can and really just putting your phone away, don't worry about the dishes, don't worry about, you know, whatever else is going on in your to-do list in your head, and just joining them in the play, and almost kind of narrating what's going on.

Oh, you know, I'll take the example of my son, he's very obsessed with Spider-Man right now, and so we play with Spider-Man all the time.

So, oh, you know, Spider-Man is, you know, is flying through the sky again, he should be on this web, like what is he feeling, almost like acting, you know, asking about those emotions and through play.

But I think just that special quality one-on-one time can be so beneficial in preventing some of these behaviors of worsening down the line.

And it's not something that when the behavior is happening, that's when you try to implement that it's more like a preventative But like I said, it allows your child to feel safe and loved and protected despite shifts happening in their world.

I like that.

Like I said, I mean, I don't know how to like gauge a level of it, right.

It's not that I don't experience tantrums and things.

And it's nice because it can be easy to get overwhelmed in the moment when those things are happening.

So it's nice to put the focus on times outside of that, right.

Because I don't think any parent perfectly shows up to those stressful moments every time, like that's not possible.

And to just prioritize those other moments, that feels a lot more doable than being your best every tantrum or every whatever that is.

Because I don't know that I will ever be that mom.

I don't know anyone who could ever be that parent.

And I think that that also knowing for yourself too, that you're going to show up in the best ways that you can.

And not to put so much pressure on yourself to always show up perfectly or regulated or all of that.

you yourself are also going through a stressful time or even physically you might feel sick or tired or rundown or hormonal or whatever it might be that I think there has been rightly so a real push into aspects of gentle parenting and approaching parenting as very emotionally available and understanding and I think all of those things are so important and it shouldn't set the factor that that or that shouldn't set the precedent that that's how it should be all the time that you're capable of doing that all the time.

Because no one is right and I mean that's an impossible standard to set and it's another aspect in which if you don't reach that you'll feel like you're falling short but that's not the case you are you are just being a human being an apparent and providing a really great, again, it can be in modeling experience of, you know, maybe you don't handle a tantrum grade.

And then you're able to come back and sit down and say, you know what, I would, you know, I was feeling a little bit frustrated, you know, I, maybe I shouldn't have yelled, I'm sorry that I yelled, you know, what were you feeling.

You know, it looks like, you know, you were yelling, were you feeling angry too.

And just having those conversations and not beating yourself up over it because you yourself, like I said, are going through a hard time as well and it's okay.

Yeah, yeah, that's helpful.

Totally selfless question, but you talked about, you know, kids having the language to talk about their emotions and this, I'm trying to think when this phase started, it feels like it was early three, maybe late two, that Harper would say things like random driving in the car, mom, are you happy.

Hey, mom, are you happy.

And I noticed it was those moments when I was stressed, like when I was like multitasking or, you know, those types of things rushing to get her to school on time, something like that.

And I very much intentionally like started to talk to her about like, no, right now I don't feel 100% happy.

And that's okay.

Like, we don't feel happy all the time.

It's totally fun to feel happy and we get to have moments that we're happy.

But sometimes there's other things going on in trying to like, give her language around emotions.

Yeah, I don't know, is that reasonable.

Of course, yes, I hear yes, you're kind of saying yes, this is okay that I did this in a way.

Yeah, I think that that at first, I think it again speaks to how, especially for your daughter to how intuitive she is to kind of pick up on that, which goes back to my kind of original thought that kids are, they pick up on everything.

And again, even in her, in her, in her way, of asking of like, are you happy.

You know, that's her with her language at her age is she's trying to check in with you because she's noticing shifts.

And so yeah, I think that that is a great way to approach it because we don't want to you know, diminish those negative emotions that we're experiencing and I and I guess I should even take it step back.

They're not always negative emotions, you know, everyone feels all of these different things.

And so, yes, and I think to not be authentic in that, to not tell the truth and be like, "No, I'm fine, you know, I'm happy.

" You know, I think that teaches them another kind of coping skill when they feel angry of, "Okay, well, I should just say I'm fine and kind of pretend that I'm not feeling that way.

" And I think that that's okay to do sometimes, of course, but it also really beneficial could be explaining that thought process and modeling of, you know, I see, I see you probably are asking me that, you know, because does mommy feel, does mommy look a little bit stressed right now or a little bit angry right now.

Or are you gonna kind of check in on what she's saying and saying, well, that's a really good thought.

You know, thanks for asking me that.

I actually am feeling a little bit stressed or a little bit upset right now.

That's okay.

It's okay to feel stressed, it's okay to feel upset.

You know, we got to go do this thing, but and I'll be okay.

But yeah, right now, I'm not I'm not feeling too great right now, but it'll be okay.

I know that we can, you know, we'll go do this one thing later or, you know, it's okay.

What are some things that, you know, and I think maybe even talking through how you cope with it, you know, I'm feeling a little bit upset.

So sometimes what I do is I take a deep breath, I count to five or, you know, I go and go outside and play outside, you know, whatever it is to kind of cope and say, yes, here's what I'm feeling and here's how I helped to manage it.

I like that.

Yeah.

And with that phase for a while, it evolved to her going up to people, grandparents, cousins, whoever, and saying, how are you feeling.

And I had people being like, how did you get your you're kid to say that.

And I'm like, because I told her, you're not allowed to say, Are you happy.

Because I want her to know that it's okay to be more than just happy.

Now, she doesn't do that anymore.

She's evolved from that face.

But for a while, I that really caught people off guard when this three year old was asking them, How are you feeling.

I bet.

I mean, it sounds like you're giving her a lot of wonderful tools of looking at emotion and understanding it.

And, you know, giving her that language too, because I think the first step in coping with emotions that tends to come a little bit later, that's a little bit more of a difficult skill, but even emotion identification, what is it that I feel.

How do you know someone feels that way.

Is it because of their certain facial expression, our body language, even just identifying, giving for the labels for for that emotion and explaining the vast variety of emotions that we can feel, it's not just happy.

I think it's really wonderful.

It sounds like you're giving here such great tools already.

- Yeah, and I really appreciate the conversation.

I wanna acknowledge that it doesn't always go well, right.

It doesn't always go with these great conversations.

And I totally get being so consumed, you know, If I think back to some of the hardest times in our journey, they were when she was a little bit younger and I didn't feel the need to be having to open up with her.

And I can imagine that being really difficult to navigate.

So if someone is going through that, like don't feel like it has to be this perfect open book with your child every day, that I don't think that that's a expectation that needs to be set up.

So I really appreciate the conversation.

I guess what I would ask as we close out, I know we've been talking for a while is women all along this journey, wherever they are listening.

Is there anything else that you feel would be like really beneficial to share with them before we close out or anything you want to send well wishes to them about before we close out the episode.

Yeah, yeah, I think, you know, as we've talked about all of this, you know, this whole journey of infertility, loss, pregnancy, parenting, it really is just, I think it's kind of, it's so sensitive, it's so unique, it's so personal to you and your own journey and, you know, even in previous experiences with grief and loss and all of that, that it is really hard and it's okay that it feels really hard.

It's not okay.

It's not fun or enjoyable to feel all of these things that you're feeling.

But I think giving yourself that permission and knowing that it's okay for any of these feelings to come up and good toss and no, like when it is that you need to seek even additional help, you know, outside of your family and friends, which does not make you weak in any way and makes this situation and these challenges so extremely hard, you know, it's hard because it's hard.

So I think knowing, you know, when it is when you need that extra additional support and being able to rely on that and knowing that that's completely fine.

And I think just that take away of that many things can be true at once and many feelings can be there at once.

It doesn't mean that it will always feel that way.

So allowing yourself those permission for those feelings.

And yes, just I think coming, you know, I don't know.

Like I said, everyone's experience is their own experience.

So, you know, I can only speak from what I know about just my own personal experience, but also just how we look at infertility and then all of that from a research evidence-based standpoint.

But my thoughts and strength and love is with everyone going through this because I know how overwhelming, how hard, how emotional it is.

And so I do think, although it's also great to have those goalposts like we talked about, taking it one step at a time and knowing that this isn't always, this isn't how it's going to feel forever, even though it feels that way.

So I appreciate you having me on and I think this is such an important topic and topics within this larger umbrella of infertility and loss.

It's so, so needed.

So I appreciate even the opportunity to just have this conversation.

Yeah, absolutely.

I really appreciate you coming on.

It's something that I think already in fertility pregnancy laws isn't talked about a lot.

Sometimes I forget that because I'm in it a lot.

But it's not.

And then you add on the extra layer of parenting through that.

I think that's definitely not talked about a lot.

So I really appreciate you coming on and talking.

And I hope you have a great week.

I will include everybody in the show notes links for you guys to go follow Dr.

Bridget and learn more about her.

Thank you.

Mm-hmm.

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